Vicky Beeching - Latest Comments in Walking away from God

Re: Walking away from God

Rich — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 06:30:12 -0000

Beth,

I like your comments, especially the last paragraph.

In the last 400 or so years we've had the benefit of printed bibles in increasing numbers of languages and even more recently the immediacy of finding bible passages we're looking for with Google searches, or having Bibles on our computers, phones, whatever.

I think it's easy for Christians to forget that it's quite a recent thing that we would even be able to find a bible all in the same place and that we would generally have the ability to read it. For many hundreds of years your best experience of the Bible was (if you were one of the literate in Latin) whatever gospel or epistle you could get to read at a library near you (probably in a monastery somewhere). Or if you were illiterate, what your priest or other religious leader told you it meant.

For most of the Christian era there were no study guides or concordances or evangelistic tracts available to the masses. The Christian people were the Word themselves, and somehow able to convey the message.

This says to me that there must be quite a lot of tolerance on the part of God and that his drawing people to himself must be at least as important as actually having a Bible to hand, and that "saved" has probably meant different things to different people over the last 2000 years.

Re: Walking away from God

Beth — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:20:52 -0000

when I wrote "half-metaphor," I meant that Jesus, in His equal dual nature, was subject to the same code of language as everyone else; the law.

But written on His heart was holiness. As Christ was without sin, in dying sacrificialy on the cross he fulfilled the law on our behalf. He was like us and yet an innocent.

Therefore, we who believe are released from the shackles of the law, a truth reveled to Peter in his dream of clean and unclean meat in Acts. The atoning death of Jesus is enough to reconcile us with the Father. Nothing need be added or taken away because He is perfect.

However, over time we have replaced the law with a new code - the New Testament. It is our saving knowledge of the gospel and our affirmation of the gospel as truth we are judged upon when we use the descriptor: Christian. This usually means, on some level, our appreciation and acceptance of The Bible. The sinners prayer, for example, is a summary of the gospel message.

But, early Christians would not have been able to use the New Testament which had not yet been written. They believed in a word of mouth testimony about Jesus death and resurrection through the witness of the Holy Spirit, which we presume could "fall" upon believers before he was collectively received by the Church at Pentecost. Pre New Testament believers would have had only the scriptures passed down to them from the Jewish tradition, which became a stumbling block to the Romans. The Bible we now use I believe to be God breathed, but I do also believe that somebody having never read the bible at all, or having never even listened to a word of mouth description of the gospel could come to faith in Jesus by the power of the cross and the will of the Holy Spirit. They may not, however, be aware that this is what they had come to believe because they would not necessarily be able to decode the message, having not received the message via the gift of language (the written word) or by speech. This is what I mean when I say "different levels of consciousness." Probably someone who has put a partial blind faith in Jesus at some level of consciousness through the Holy Spirit without hearing the gospel message would be unable to "tell" the person they believed in to someone else, but I think it is reasonable others might see fruits of their partially conscious faith through the fruits of the Spirit and the theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Love, which presumably can be imparted divinely having never been communicated by page or by voice, by virtue of their being supernatural gifts. In this way I believe people can meet with Jesus having never "met" Him, but I believe the constant desire of the Holy Spirit is to bring us to a full knowledge of God in Christ, as we see daily through sanctification.

Re: Walking away from God

Beth — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:14:50 -0000

I know I'm late to the party. I've promised myself I'll try to wrestle though some of the important theological questions that plagued my 20's before I turn 30 later this year. I've been encouraged heartily by your blog and the attitude of your commentees. I'm open to having my theology reformed as I have no idea really what I am writing about, no gospel training. Maybe this can be a goal for the next decade. Thanks for helping me think things through! Here goes. My stab in the dark. I haven't been inside a Church building for a service since last Christmas:

I think bringing people to Christ is about bringing them to consciousness
in God. Interestingly I think some people can be conscious in God and
reject him. Others never realize their consciousness in God. Still more
understand but don't reach their potential in asking Jesus to be their Saviour. I'm aware this sounds new age and potentially universalist.

I'm not sure, when he judges, Jesus will use the same measure for all
the people under the earth, who have ever lived, and who will go on to
live after us. I'm not sure he will be asking: "Have they prayed the
prayer?"

The reason for this is the law was given to produce repentance, a
greater reliance on God and a greater consciousness of how the individual
and community to whom the law was given (the ancient Hebrews) were
created in God and were, from the beginning, subject to his standards.

When the community couldn't meet those legal standards set so high in
holiness I don't think it was necessarily a cruelty. God's holiness is
not a stick to beat His people with but rather a receptacle of His
grace. Rather, the law was an elaborate picture communicating to them,
while a good deal of their consciousness - who they thought they were -
matched God's vision for creation, some of who they knew themselves to
be fell outside of God's loving remit. The same picture the gospel gives
us today.

Jesus himself fulfilled the law and took our sins. It is better for us
to be conscious of this and respond to it in our hearts. But if somebody

is not fully conscious of this truth, and have not put their full faith
in God, in body, soul and spirit - their complete consciousness of who
they are this side of heaven, I think it is possible they may have a
partial consciousness of faith, via the timeless personhood of Jesus
and the Holy Spirit. The only
way to the Father is through the Son, but - this is a flimsy metaphor,
advance apologies - Jesus was the answer to the exam before God asked
Moses to write the questions: questions without answers produce self
examination, but we can't know by asking ourselves searching questions
if we are righteous. Only Jesus can tell us we are right. The Father
tells us we are right through the half metaphor of the life of Jesus.
The mystery of the incarnation. Jesus is the only answer to our
questions. He is the only righteous one. He has all of the answers and
this is why he was born as a priest in the order of

If somebody who is not literate in the gospel is examining
themselves and asking their spirit questions, I think it is possible
Jesus in his grace will provide them with answers. He is the good
shepherd. This doesn't mean they will have a full consciousness of
themselves in Him, however, and our role as Christians is to bring those
who are unchurched and lost toward the full light of Christ, where they
can be found. Still, I believe there are people who get to this point
and loose themselves again. But the story of the prodigal tells us the
door is always open to return.

I think the key for us as Christians is to recognize, in those who are
not Christians, the consciousness of God, and draw them to a greater
consciousness of Him and of themselves. The sinners prayer is a popular
and effective way to do this, not least because it seems to us to be
unequivocal.

Re: Walking away from God

Cheesemeister — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:56:10 -0000

In order to answer your question you first need to tell us exactly what do you mean by "Saved"?

Re: Walking away from God

Nezbet — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:51:33 -0000

hy vivky i like the qustion u posed of once saved always saved?
that would be a relavent qustion if salvation depened on us but thankfulley savlation dose not depend on us we can only theorise as to weather we can loose our salvation but the truth is that God dose desire us all to be saved and he knows those that will choose to rebell but he will ultmatley decide who he wants in heven and so the statment once saved always saved seems a little redundant seeing as we have no control over weater we r going to be in heven or not and weahterothers will find savlation but what we should do in responce is trat it as though it were true and live our lives sould out fro God.
much lv n blessings neil

Re: Walking away from God

Chuckjts — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 00:12:47 -0000

Dear Vicky,

You posted about five or more pages on "Once saved always saved". I spent the evening working on just a couple of pages. I have the answers to your five pages but I could only put together a few pages tonight but I will have more pages, Lord willing, as I have already covered most of the topics you mentioned. The question is wheter I will get the time or the opportunity. You are welcome to discuss salvation issues with me at any time.

Chuckt

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
What is the process for UN adoption in the Bible? Based on what sins are we UN adopted?
John 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (judgment) ; but is passed from death unto life.
If it says we shall not come into judgment then where is the judgment to remove us as adopted sons and daughters?
“He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will”-Ephesians. 1:5
Why would God choose (Ephesians 1:4) us before the foundation of the world “that we should be holy and without blame before him in love” if His will was to unadopt us because of sin?
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
We are sealed with the spirit until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30) and we were given “earnest” money (2 Cor. 1:22) or a down payment. The word “sealed” comes from signet ring (Strong's #4973) which means to stamp for security or preservation. We're stamped making us God's property. Sealed comes the word comes from the word signet which means that we're sealed from "Misappropriation" because signet means 'fenced in' just like God put a mark on Cain lest anyone should kill him (Genesis 4:15).

Another reason is that we aren’t our own and we were bought with a price making us God’s property:
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."-I Cor. 6:20
There are 144,000 that go into the tribulation “sealed” .
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
They come out of the tribulation because they are sealed by God:

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
God’s seal is a pledge of His promise that if we believe in Him, we shall not come into judgment (John 5:24) because “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will”-Ephesians. 1:5
2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, (NASB)
2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a [fn] pledge. (NASB)
So if God planned a good work in us with a pledge, will He be faithful to complete it?
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
If we can't get in then how would Paul get in because he murdered Christians and the law said that murderers should be put to death (Numbers 35) and that 1 John 3:15 says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him and Moses who killed an Egyptian (Exodus 2:4) was at the mount of transfiguration (Mark 9:4)? The only way for Moses to be there is for someone to pay our ransom and take our place.

Re: Walking away from God

leebrewster — Fri, 26 Mar 2010 05:58:11 -0000

Dear Vicky:

Hi, This site is awesome. So is your music I love your voice and listing to the praise. I would like to thank you for your desire to serve the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ, our Lord, savior and Life. Amen. I would like to bless you, your ministry and your family. God Has given you an awesome ministry and a heart for worship that is a blessing to see and hear.

I would like to comment on your debate or your questions regarding "once saved always saved". firstly I pray that the light and truth of Jesus will be seen and heard through my thoughts and what I believe regarding what scriptures say about this.
secondly even though there are scriptures that seem to imply that one could lose one "salvation", in truth it is not the truth.

We need to look at the word. salvation the word means according to The new Webster's Dictionary:

1 a : deliverance from the power and effects of sin b : the agent or means that effects salvation. John 3:16 (my input)
2 : liberation from ignorance or illusion John 8:32 (my input)
3 a : preservation from destruction or failure b : deliverance from danger or difficulty
This is speaking spiritually: 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and the word saved means;

transitive verb 1 a : to deliver from sin b : to rescue or deliver from danger or harm c : to preserve or guard from injury, destruction, or loss )
3 b (1) : to keep from being lost to an opponent
4 : maintain, preserve <save appearances="">intransitive verb 1 : to rescue or deliver someone
3 : to make a save

This is speaking soul:
look at 1st Thessalonians 5:23 that is the division between spirit and soul.

Taking these two things into account; here are a few scripture references that back this up:
John 3:16-18, Romans 6:1-10. these are just two for know that illustrate my point which is that the two words mean two different things. Jesus provides one with salvation through believing (to completely trust in or on Him; look at The amplified bible at these scriptures). And salvation through sanctification (growth into maturity).

On the cross Jesus becomes sin for man and provides atonement for our sin, right. This we all believe, at least I hope. He dealt with sin, death and the effects thereof, in and for man at and on the cross, Romans chapters 3-5 discusses this in detail. then Paul discusses how we also have been crucified with Jesus and also risen in newness of life in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:1-10. we need to note here what Paul is discussing here is what has happened to us spiritually for, by through and in Christ alone. this is our spiritual state in Christ that is we have been joined together with him and have become one with him in spirit. Therefore we cannot be separated from Him. A simple illustration I think is take; before you stir it together; a cup of coffee, (for those who don't drink black coffee) the sugar, milk and coffee, three separate things right, now mix them, they have been changed, it look different and tastes different, yet it is coffee read Galatians 2:20. now even if you had the best devices to separate the three things they can not be separated; that is if you were successful at achieving this, then the three things a. would still have traces of the other in each and b. they would no longer be in there original form. right therefore it is impossible. Hope you see my point here.

Thirdly Paul discusses how we have become a new creation in Christ Jesus; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21, and even then points out to the fact that Jesus was the first born of a new creation; Colossians 1:15. Also to drive this point home The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God Romans 8:16-18.
Romans 7 discusses how we have died to the law where sin gets it power,
so so far, we have by Christ death and resurrection we have been:
A. Redeemed - no longer guilty.
B. Justified - Made righteous - to have right standing with God.
C. Reconciled - Restored in right relation with God
D. Regenerated - formed or created again or to be spiritually reborn or converted
E.Sanctified - made holy and set apart
F. Crucified - old man (self) has died and it is no longer I who lives and I have been risen in newness of life and sit in the heavenly places. Romans 6:1-10, Galatians 2:20 and Colossians 3:3.

So salvation in your spirit is the final work of the cross Jesus said "it is Finished" John 19.28-30 but being saved in your soul is sanctification, In Hebrews 5:10-15 Paul exhorts us to no longer be on the milk of the word but to grow into maturity and eat solid meat, that way we no longer need to be taught again about righteousness, and that we will be able to distinguish between good and evil. that is what it means to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. It means that as we seek and choose Christ, denying our flesh their will be a battle in the mind. Romans 12: 2. Even Jesus said that we need to deny ourselves and pick up or cross, Matthew 16:21-27 here he is discussing that we need to lay down our lives for his name sake and recognize that he is the only one who can save us, or we will lose our lives, that is our soul, as our spirit has not yet been redeemed (all pre-cross, btw, Jesus only preached the law, not grace, as that did not happen until after his resurrection which was at Pentecost, which as you now the Holy spirit preached through peter and then later Paul to the gentile, as the Jew would not listen, amen) Jesus even went on to say that we need and will indeed drink from the same cup that he drank of, Matthew 20:23 and we need to die John 12:24 in order to live and bear fruit or a harvest, right. What is the harvest and or fruit, well it is the fruit if the spirit, which only the spirit produces, and we bear it, John 15 1-12 and Galatians 5:22-29.

Hebrews 10:26-31 first of all Paul is speaking to the Jew here. Also it is impossible to not sin willfully, as every sin we do is willful - no, but the sin problem was dealt with at the cross, so people do not go to hell because of sin, it is because the do not repent and accept Jesus's atonement on the cross and that is what these jews were believing that is that their sin could cause them to to go to hell, and Paul clarifies this by pointing out what the penalty of the law was, death, but with out repentance they would most surly be facing the lake of fire. note that he says that the tasted did they drink, Hebrews 6:4 no, Once a person comes to Jesus that is the point of repentance, as repentance is a spiritual issue not in the soul, even though we are to act and live from and on it, but first it starts in the heart, then the mind, then in action. it also means to agree with God, and I do not know about anyone else, however, the Holy Spirit convicted me that I was a sinner, I agreed, I repented, ask Jesus to forgive me and to cleanse me I invited him into my heart and he came rushing in Revelation 3:20, that is once and for all as Jesus is our high priest and his atonement is once and for all, also what this is saying is that they did not repent, and that being such that they were insulting the Holy Spirit, and trampling under foot the Son of God and therefore no matter how much they tried to find righteousness through the law it could not be attained, because it only leads to sin, as that is where sin gets it power, from the law, right. for a better commentary check out Bob George at people to people ministries, he has had the longest radio broadcast than any other radio evangalist, 25+ yrs now, here is his link: http://www.realanswers.net/... understanding Hebrew 6:4 and 10:26-31.

In closing:

I could go on and on, but I think that as much as I enjoy the blog thing, this is not the venue to answer all these questions, however, here are a few suggestions and books that I have read that have open my eyes to the reality that one can not lose that which did not belong to him in the first place and that as we agree that it is a gift by God and through Jesus, but also by grace through faith that we are saved. Romans 10:17, Ephesians 2:4,5. Ephesians 2:8-10 (amplified) therefore God will not revoke on the covenant he made with Abraham. regarding Jesus and those who believe.
Jesus prayed for us in John 17 what a beautiful prayer it is, that we would be one with him and the father, and amongst ourselves. this was for future believers, earlier he even states that we belong to him and that we have been given to Him by the father and that nothing, can snatch us out of his hand. Paul even exhorts us that nothing can separate us from the love of God, Romans 8:38-39. and that also that we would come to comprehend the height, breadth, width and depth of his love for us, and this is what the Holy spirit does. Ephesians 3:14-21 Also we also need to note that Christ dwells within us believers. Colosians 1:26-27, and Jesus in Matthew 9:17 said that Neither is new wine put in old wineskins; for if it is, the skins burst and are [a]torn in pieces, and the wine is spilled and the skins are ruined. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved. we are the old wine flasks and if Jeus joined his spirit with our old dead spirit we would die, so he crucified us and made us new, and then joined us together with Him. Amen

a few last comments,
1. Satan has us working for things we already possess.
2.We are to work from victory not for it and we are to live in purpose not for permission. and
3. if we live like sparrows we will soar like eagles.
Here are the books and links.
1. the search for significance, by Robert, S Mcgee, this is a link to a text version of the book.
http://www.archive.org/stre...
2. check out Neil T. Andersons site Freedom in Christ: http://www.ficm.org/newsite...
3. Steve Mcvee at http://www.Gracewalk.org book is The Grace Walk
4. GFI (grace fellowship International) this is a great diagram http://www.gracefellowshipi... and check out the book handbook to happiness by Dr. Charles R. Solomon here is a link that you can get it from. http://www.gracefellowshipi... scroll down and it is about 12 books down also check out the ins and out of rejection, the Rejection syndrom, the way of acceptance, and lastly
5. Mike wells at http://abidinglife.com/2009/. He states that there is nothing that the nearness of Christ can not cure. Also check out his online resources, he has some fantastic articles regarding the Christian life and you can listen to him through some free mp3's here at this site: http://www.mikewellsdownloa...

God has really changed my life. I came from a broken background and a highly dysfunctional family, in short by the time I was 9 I was in a mental institution and diagnosed to be clinically insane, due to abuse, in many forms, abandonment, and lots of rejection. For many of my years, which I am now 38, I have struggled with God's purpose and guidance for me, even now I am having difficulties with employment, but that is mainly due to the economy here in Canada, however God has healed me from my past and from the pains of such, by crucifying it at the cross with Him, amen. He is doing some amazing work in me. In fact I have a heart for worship and I play drums in two worship bands at a couple of homeless shelters, lead worship at another church every second Thursday of the month, and also am working on putting together a worship CD called freedom. Trusting I Christ to bring this all together, Looking to start a worship team and go to local churches and if God willing the world. to spread how we can walk in the truth of His Grace, Power and Love through praise and worship. The name of the team is Alive In Christ (hope you do not mind me mentioning this on your site, simply just giving you a testimony of what Christ has done, for, in and what he is doing through me) as this is what we are, and being that we have been placed into eternal life, and grafted into the vine. Amen.
We are either in the life of Adam, going to the lake of fire, or in Christ going to eternity with Jesus. Amen
Thank you for the work your doing and for posting this "debate" as I enjoy a good bible discussion as you know iron sharpens iron. Again hope to here from you, God Bless you and

Love your Brother in Christ and Glory be to Jesus. Amen

Lee Brewster
AliveInChrist

Re: Walking away from God

Chip — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:40:44 -0000

I think in the end you can prove or disprove any and all doctrine by doctrine. So we have an element of faith to fall back on. Jesus said it is finished ! all that is needed to be done was done through him. It also says that in him we are complete ( having all its part or elements). He entered into the Holy Of Holy's once, he sacrificed himself once, We Are One In Him, (this in itself is a powerful teaching, that is not understood) we are a new creature, we are adopted, we are created after his image. the new creature who is imaged after Christ is recognized as one in Christ ,as he is holy I am holy, as he is without sin i am without sin, "in the flesh no" but in the spirit yes. You cannot teach a physical relationship and base your doctrine on temperal salvation, we have entered into a higher understanding in the spiritual realm. No flesh will enter into heaven and no flesh shall be justified in his sight, we are corrupt after the fashion of Adam, but yet we are pure without spot after the redemption of Christ who took away the penalty of the law which was death and gave us life through and by himself. When you read the New Testament alot of what you are hearing is bringing the jews from a life based on law and self effort to a life based on grace. (an alien concept to them and other religions). So to us who live by Grace are confused because we did not grow up under a law based system.

In a nutshell there is a seperation of the flesh and spirit, a spirit (the new creature) cannot sin, and unfortunatly the spirit has been made subject to vanity(the flesh) which can sin, not willingly, but by the operation of God who has created both to work and do his will. Jesus took away the penality of sin and created in himself one new man fashioned after himself, but he never removed the sin nature from the man(flesh). If you are going to eccept onced saved, always saved it must be understood in faith and with the knowledge of the seperation of the flesh and spirit. Ye must be born again; and truly the first part of the phrase must be understood Once Saved. Let us get that right in our lives before we we worry of the eternal properties of the second part, Always Saved. Sincerely and I enjoy your web site.. EHaskell (author of Once Saved, Always Saved @ Trafford.com

P.S. those who view Hebrew 6 as a nay sayer to there security,need to see it from the view point of the Jews (the Hebrews) in the wilderness who were enlightened and tasted (mana) and were partakers of the spirit and yet they could not enter in because of there rejection (their unbelief,) and once there is the element of rejection or unbelief it is impossible to bring any one to repentance seeing they reject the very core of what is needed to enter in. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, there is your enlightenedment ;there is your spirit, there is your tasting ,what will you do with it?

Re: Walking away from God

naturalidadlady — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 21:02:04 -0000

I don't believe in once saved always saved. Let's read Hewbrews 6:4-6 the bible says it is empossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have becaom partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame. What really took it home for me was Hewbrews 10:26-29 which states for if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Mosses law dies without mery on the tesitmony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment do you suppose willbe thought worthy who has tarmpled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covernant by which he was santified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace. The holy spirit is a gift from God and as indicated by some others God will not take away a gift given. I do recall that the spirit of God was taken away from King Saul. Further what hope is there for person who grieve the holy spirit. Remember the spirit of God does not strive with man always and the gift of God is without repentance. We have alot of christians who were given gifts from God and even in disobedience the gift was not taken away, however, that does not mean that they are walking in the way of the Lord and eternal life belongs to them. It simply means that if they had the gift of healing or teaching that gift still remains, however their sould can still be lost because of disobedience. Remember you can only serve one master and if you are not in obedience to God you are not serving him and if you are not his then you must belong to satan.

Re: Walking away from God

Jackie0 — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:26:24 -0000

Great explanation (since I agree with you) the best explanation is simple, wasnt Jesus so simple in explaining the things of Heaven to His children?
If we are alive in Christ then our "works" will show, our tree will produce works/fruit worthy of the Lamb. Jesus himself "cursed" the fig tree that did not produce figs, it withered and died. How can the Son of Man, (who did not come to condemn the world) curse a tree and basically kill it and deprive it from producing more fruit?
We are made in His image and like the fig tree (that was made to produce figs) if our fruit/works do not produce the "fruits of the Spirit" then we will be cursed and cast away.

Re: Walking away from God

Lily — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:18:33 -0000

I totally agree with all of what you say Vicky!! So refreshing to read that I am not alone in this.

Re: Walking away from God

John on Cape Cod — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:12:04 -0000

Dear Anon,

Again, I believe God's Word tells us that He wants us to know our destiny --that we can have certainty and confidence. Continuing to look at what the Apostle John wrote:

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love 1 John 4:15-18

You also see in these verses the power of God's love, the liberating power that alleviates the fear of eternal judgment. Children of God, do not have to fear His judgment, although by His love, He will discipline them (see Heb 12:5-11). It is also written, " God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind (2 Tim 1:7)."

On the other hand, I also believe that the enemy of our souls wants to keep us captive to fear. Satan does not want us to rest in the complete and perfect work of Jesus Christ, which Heb 10:14 says "by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." With such glorious promises such as this one, and many other in the Word that give us confidence before God, ought not we serve Him, motivated and empowered by such wondrous & saving love? If you have received Jesus Christ as Savior, and you believe He is Lord, then He alone is faithful and capable to finish the work He stated in you. What reason to rejoice, praise, and serve Him with gratitude! Let this marvelous grace overwhelm and overflow!

I am praying that you will realize the full joy and confidence in your salvation through the working of His Holy Spirit! (ref Ps 51:12)
Amen.

Re: Walking away from God

John on Cape Cod — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:47:19 -0000

Explaining Loss (Part 2)
Demonic Faith

We've been talking about “explaining loss”. That is, why do some people appear to be in the faith, and in church, and then they disappear, fall totally off the map? We don't see them around any longer. Did they have something and then they lost it? Or did they never have it all? Now the apostle John's conclusion on the matter is this they never had it all. The way he put it is this, “they went out from among us but they were not of us, for if they had been of us they would have continued with us but they went out that they may be manifest that none of them were of us.” His idea that they “are not of us” demonstrates that they were never of us. The point of this message, and as well as the previous message about “dead faith” is we know that in order to be sure that someone is of the faith, they must have the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit you going to produce good works.

So, lets lets continue with James, having already looked at “dead faith” which was in James 2:14 to 17. Now we're going to look at what we're going to call “demonic faith” which has an intellectual component and also an emotional component.

James chapter 2 starting at verse eighteen reading verse 19 as well, says
“But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!

Now, noticed that the demons obviously understand that God exists. They've seen Him in His glory. They have that picture in their mind and they even shudder! There's an emotional response. Which can happen during a genuine encounter with the Lord. I might also add, that an emotional response can happen with something that is not of the LORD – think about people at a rock concert or at the Super Bowl or other sporting event. We need to realize that an emotional response does not complete a genuine faith. It is a component, but in itself cannot be relied upon. The demons are missing a vital component of a trust that causes obedience.

Jesus illustrated a similar phenomena in his parable of the sower. Take a look at Matthew chapter 13 verse 20 and 21. If you remember, the story the sower goes out, casts seed, which is the word of God. The first lands by the wayside, which the devil snatches up. The second seed is the one we're going to examine here. It says, “He who received the seed on the stony places this is the one hears the word and immediately receives it with joy yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while for when tribulation or persecution arises, because of the Word, immediately stumbles.” So there an idea hear that there is an emotional response. There is a great joy they when the gospel is heard, however, it does not take root. It does not take root in the heart. It will not bear fruit and the plant shrivels up, once severe testing comes. This is an illustration therefore, a demonic faith.

Let's re-examine James verse 19 – “you believe that there is one God you do well even the demons believe and tremble.” We already made the observation that the demons have seen God . A demonic faith, therefore relies on sight. It could rely on signs, or could rely on experiences, or could rely on feelings. However, what we are called to do? According to 2 Corinthians 5:7 “We walk by faith and not by sight.” Getting this backwards is very dangerous. There is great danger relying solely on some kind of phenomenon, or some kind of experience, and that's not where we want to put our trust.

We need to rely or trust in the truth found in the Word of God. Otherwise, if we have a bad day, we must have a bad God, and on a good day, a good God. However, the Lord is always good, the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. His character is immune to economic downturns or flighty, fickle behavior. His character is stable. If we are to have the stability we need, it will come from a trust in God and His Word. Otherwise our our senses will deceive us, as things aren't always what they seem.

So true genuine, dynamic faith is relying on the word of God. This is the word of God, that James says in Chapter 1, to receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. In fact, salvation has two agents working together, which we will develop further when we look at dynamic faith. But I will leave you with this from 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, were Paul was rejoicing at their salvation. Notice the two agents that are work in verse 13. It says a “We are bound to give thanks to God always for you brethren, beloved of the Lord because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” So these of the two agents that come to bear in saving faith. The believing in the gospel truth and the work of the Holy Spirit. We'll look at that in more detail next time as we examine how the Holy Spirit is vital to a saving, genuine, dynamic faith.

But for now the question is: Where is your trust? Is it in what God has said, or is it on your experiences? Does this trust in God produce obedience?

Re: Walking away from God

brokensoul — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:43:09 -0000

Wow. I have to say I dont know if I completely agree with the theological stand but have to say that I am VERY impressed at your thoroughness! All I am going to say is this...if we are truly Christians, our faith is suppose to be a LIFESTYLE not a duty or a choice. We are saved by the GRACE of God. We are called to surrender our lives, hearts, and minds every day as many times as it takes. God extends His grace and mercy to us freely and without reserve. We ARE going to stumble and fail. As much as I will encourage this "debate" we need to remember that truth is truth, and speculation and debate is what it is. Are we focusing on being more on the tools and material or the builder? There are some things I believe we are not fully meant to understand. There is a VERY fine line between predestination and free will. Honestly I believe both are right and wrong to an extent. But should that even matter if we are fulfilling the Great Commission? What will it really solve to determine who is right and who is wrong? Jesus said to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel and let HIM work in the hearts and minds of those who hear it. Hope that helps a little.
- Dave
www.brokensoulforchrist.wor...

Re: Walking away from God

kev8d — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 13:03:43 -0000

I think it is important to consider your starting point. What does it mean to be saved? If we assume that salvation equals X (or Y, or XYZ) then this is going to influence the answer to the question.

I don't have time to read all the comments, but it's interesting to observe that in the Eastern Church Fathers (from Irenaeus through Origen (if we may include him!), Athanasius, to the Cappadocian Fathers, to John of Damascus, to the Byzantine Church (and beyond!), salvation was conceived of as a process by which we are conformed to the image of Christ. Whether you want to call this sanctification, theosis, deification, etc., the vision of salvation includes the gift of immortal resurrection life, but this life begins now if, by grace, we die with Christ (through baptism and daily striving against sin) so we may participate in his life (now and in the life to come).

All the best.

Re: Walking away from God

Anon — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:54:23 -0000

John,
I do know that I could have eternal life, I also believe in God. But I don't live a Christian lifestyle...I have done in the past I just don't feel able to do it at the moment. I also know that God knows everything that has happened to me in my life and I don't believe he has given up on me and bolted me out of his books...It seems others on here would disagree as I was truely saved once.
This though is why I feel this is an unanswerable question and that at the end of the day we won't know where we will all end up until we are dead!

Re: Walking away from God

John on Cape Cod — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:21:56 -0000

Dear Anon,

The apostle John writes to the contrary in his 1st epistle:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. " 1 John 5:13

So, we can know, and goes on to write that this important because we can then approach the LORD confidently:
"And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. " 1 John 5:14

The LORD wants us to be secure in Him.

Re: Walking away from God

Anon — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 18:37:26 -0000

SO it looks like I'm going to hell from what you guys are saying...but I guess we won't know where we're going till we're dead...maybe I will be in heaven after all! If I am then I guess the once saved always saved statement is true :)

Re: Walking away from God

pedro — Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:29:29 -0000

many of your things sound good but when i see your pictures and see you colour your hair . Why cant you be a Plain Girl in your pictures and why you look in different styles

Re: Walking away from God

John on Cape Cod — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:43:29 -0000

Examining Loss (Part 1)
Dead Faith
Question: Why do people leave the church, or in other words abandon the faith, or abandon a sound belief in the orthodox principles of the faith? We are not talking about why a family may leave our church and go to another down the road, but why do some seem to stray from the faith? It is very distressing and perplexing.

The apostle John assesses this issue in 1 John 2:19:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John's answer is that they left, but this is simply because they never truly belonged – in other words, truly believed. We need to develop this idea, as it is critical that we know that we have a genuine faith.

In fact, the apostle Paul exhorts believers in 2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 2 Cor 13:5

The key question which has the ultimate answer is, Is Christ in you? Or in other words have you been born of the Holy Spirit? I'm getting to the conclusion before we get going, so you know where we are going, so that when we get there, you'll know where you are. Got it? Where we are going is this, the Bible clearly teaches that you must be born again, and thus have the Holy Spirit to have saving faith. Now, indeed this is the key idea. With out the Holy Spirit, we are going to see, that a dynamic, genuine, saving faith is impossible!

We are going to examine James Chapter 2 and find that there are three kinds of faith, and only one of them is saving faith.

The first is what we will call a dead faith. Reading from James 2:14-17:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

This “dead” faith is of the intellect only. There is the acceptance of God, and a “head” knowledge, or “mental accent” of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. However, there is a lacking of a response of good works. Now, let's get one thing straight at the top here – James is not advocating the idea that works are required for salvation and thus contradicting Paul's writing to the the Ephesians 2:8,9 where he says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. No, no no. What James is saying is that good works are a product or genuine, saving faith. In fact, this is in complete agreement with Paul is Ephesians 2:10 -
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. God's saving work in us will produce good works.

Let's get back to James. James is saying here that you cannot claim to have faith in God and the redeeming work of Jesus Christ if its not demonstrated by works of love and compassion. If your life is not demonstrating the love that Jesus Christ has for you, then how can the love of Jesus Christ be in you? It is His love for you, the love He expressed on the cross, that is the supreme motivator.

Let's look at this further. The apostle John is in complete agreement. Looking at his first letter, we find that John proclaims that true faith will manifest in acts of love and compassion.

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 1 John 3:14
This verse clearly teaches that love for fellow believers is an indication “passing from death to life”, and thus of true faith. Paul uses the “passing from death to life” description of salvation when he says in Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins.” If you have passed from death to life, then you must love your brothers and sisters in Christ. So true saving faith is marked by love for believers.

John also says in 1 John 3:17 “But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?” This is a test, and again, this echo's what James said, in that if we have the capability to meet someones need, yet do nothing, we need to question whether the love of God is alive and active in our lives, and whether we have a genuine and living faith. Now, the we know that the only way we have the love of God operational in us is because, as it says in Romans 5:5 “God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”

John goes to further state the importance of expressing love and compassion to others when he says in 1 John 4:20: “If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.” John makes it very clear, that there are these tests that indicate through our attitude and actions as to whether you have saving faith, and thus whether the Holy Spirit is present and active in you, bringing forth these works of love. Otherwise, you may have what theologians call simply a mental accent, which is a “dead faith.” And it is dead because it does not exhibit works of love, and works of life.

Now, I need to quickly say that some of you may having saving faith, and the Holy Spirit, however, you are currently or temporarily lacking the evidence of good works. I say this in love, that you need to examine if there are other passions, pursuits, or pleasures have captivated you. In this case, you may indeed have the Holy Spirit, but does He have all of you? If this is the case, you need to allow Him to remove the things, sins, be it attitudes, habits, whatever, that He will again be the dominating influence and bear the fruit of good works.

In the future we will continue this topic and look at the two other kinds of faith portrayed in James chapter 2, but for now, a Question: Does you life demonstrate the love of Jesus Christ to others? If not, you need to examine yourself and determine if you are truly in the faith.

Remember, the faith that can save you is the faith that will change you!

(Part's 2&3 will follow, which discuss Demonic Faith & Dynamic Faith)

Re: Walking away from God

nathanmitchell — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:55:00 -0000

I copied my answers from video response just in case everyone has read my comments on role of church history.

will finally share my thoughts on church history being that salvation is huge topic to discuss. Your video response has inspired me really in several areas: 1) talk about theology debates since our generation rarely digs deep into Christian heritage, 2) know why we believe to understanding doctrine and know how to defend the truth, 3) That good theology would shape our Christian worldview to understand Hebrew, Greek and Hermeneutics as “iron sharpens iron” biblical truth is life or death matter. Thank for taking the time to prepare your response to the scriptures that I shared being so honest.

The role of Doctrine

1. Definition of Doctrine: Taking a reality as revealed through Scripture
A) “Doctrine” comes from the Greek word “to teach or teaching” (didasko)
B) The source of Doctrine: God’s Word 2 Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”

2. Why is Doctrine important?
A) We need it: The Christians closest to Jesus’ “42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” Acts 2:42
B) Doctrine is the foundation of our ministry(-eis). Without it we have no rudder.
1 Timothy 4:6 “6If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.”

C) Doctrine preserves us from sin Psalm 119:11 “I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.”

3) Example: Jesus is repeatedly shown as instructing in correction

Matthew 13:54 “and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works?”

Mark 1:22 “And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes.”

Mark 10:1 “And he left there and went to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan, and crowds gathered to him again. And again, as was his custom, he taught them.”

Biblical Interpretation:

• Observation
The inductive study method will help you slow down to focus on God's Word, and see what it really says.

* Interpretation
Careful observation enables us to discover what the text means in its context. Since the Bible is its own best interpreter, the more accurate your observation, the greater will be your understanding of God's Word.

* Application
The Creator and Author of life has shown us how to live a satisfying, eternally significant life. Intentional, disciplined observation and interpretation lead you to the profoundly applicable Truth of the Bible.

Key movements in Church History:

Peter Waldo, one of the most effective of the pre-Lutheran Reformers, was a wealthy merchant of Lyons, France. Impressed with the way of poverty and service to Christ as the path to heaven (based on Matthew 19:21), he sold most of his holdings in 1176 and gave the proceeds to the poor. He retained some property to care for his wife and daughters, however. Within a year or so, he was joined by others, men and women, who called themselves the “Poor in spirit,” and undertook an itinerant ministry of preaching repentance and living from the handouts of listeners.

John Wycliffe (1330?–1384) was a biblical reformer, bringing to bear the teachings of Scripture on the practices of the Roman church. He also engaged in Bible translation, and it was largely through his influence that the first English version was produced. Though he personally translated or supervised translation of parts of the Bible, his version was not completed until after his death, by Nicholas of Hereford and John Purvey. Without doubt, its widespread use had an influence on the development of the English language. Wycliffe was educated at Oxford and later became master of Balliol College there. For a while chaplain to the king, with access to Parliament, he was able to reach some of the upper-class English. But he also sought to reach the common people, sending out lay evangelists to instruct them.

John Hus (1372?–1415), professor of philosophy at the University of Prague and preacher at Bethlehem Chapel, did not slavishly depend on Wycliffe, however. The old view that he was influenced by Wycliffe to the point that he simply adopted the views of the Englishman as his own must now be abandoned. A Czech reform movement, dating to about the middle of the fourteenth century, paralleled Wycliffe’s efforts. Hus was in the tradition of the native movement and a product of it. But during the early fifteenth century indigenous and imported varieties of reform joined to form a single development.
When the pope summoned Hus to the Council of Constance to stand examination on his views, the emperor Sigismund ordered him to go and promised safe conduct to and from the council. But when the council condemned him as a heretic and burned him at the stake, Sigismund did not interfere. Like Luther, Hus came to blows with the pope over the issue of indulgences (among other things); but Europe was not so ready for the Reformation in 1415 as it would be a century later.

Girolamo Savonarola (1452–1498) was a forceful preacher against the worldliness and corruption of church and society in Florence. A Dominican, he was transferred to the priory of San Marco in Florence in 1482 and gradually rose in influence and power in the city. His studies in the Old Testament prophets and the book of Revelation helped to make him a powerful preacher against the evils and corruption of society.

During 1513–1518, Luther lectured on Psalms, Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and Titus and sometime during that period came to an acceptance of the doctrine of justification by faith. He was a Saul turned Paul. He abandoned the prevailing Scholastic and allegorical interpretation for a more strictly literal and grammatical interpretation. His students responded enthusiastically to his pedagogical method. Luther’s influence expanded as he was given charge over eleven monasteries in 1515. In the same year the town council of Wittenberg called him to the pulpit of the City Church, where he continued to minister the rest of his life. From that vantage point, he could carry his views directly to the laity.
The issue that brought Luther to the attention of all Europe was indulgences. Initially, an indulgence provided for the remission of punishment imposed by the Roman Catholic church on someone who was guilty of a specific sin. An indulgence was based on the principle that sinners were unable to do sufficient penance to expiate all their sins. Hence it was necessary for them to draw on the “treasury of merits,” to which Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the saints contributed and which could be dispensed by the pope. In earlier days one might gain an indulgence for risking his life in fighting the infidel during the Crusades. Gradually however, financial sacrifice was accepted in lieu of physical risk. And the financing of the building of churches, monasteries, hospitals, and the like could be designated by the pope as warranting indulgences. During the later Middle Ages, indulgences came to involve not only remission of punishment imposed by the Roman church, but also absolution of all guilt incurred before God.

Great Distinctives of the Lutheran Reformation
Justification by faith alone
Salvation by grace alone
The Bible alone as the authority for doctrine and practice
The priesthood of the believer
Promotion of congregational singing

HULDREICH Zwingli (1484–1531) sparked the Reformation in German-speaking Switzerland. After study at the universities of Bern, Vienna, and Basel, he was ordained and became parish priest at Glarus, where he remained for ten years. At Glarus he studied extensively the classics in the original languages, thus laying the foundation for his future Reformation work. During those years he also served as chaplain to Swiss mercenaries in Italy and began a campaign against Swiss mercenary service. This effort brought him many enemies in some of the poorer areas of the country, where that means of employment was thought to be necessary. Such animosity would be important in the later factionalizing of the country. He also fell under the influence of Erasmus during the Glarus period.
In 1516 he moved to the monastery church of Einsiedeln for a three-year ministry. There he studied the Greek New Testament published by Erasmus. He later claimed that at Einsiedeln in 1516 he had begun to found his preaching on the gospel. Because the monastery church had a well-known image of the Virgin Mary, it had become a pilgrimage center. To such comers Zwingli began to preach against the belief that religious pilgrimages were a means of obtaining pardon.
After becoming priest in the cathedral of Zurich (1519) Zwingli gradually became more open about his views. He broke with the pope and married, and preached openly against celibacy. Popular feeling was roused to such a point that the city council felt that it was necessary to appoint a public meeting for the discussion of religious subjects. When it convened, Zwingli presented his Sixty-seven Articles and was so convincing that the council declared that thereafter all religious teaching was to be based on the Bible alone and that the state would support this principle. Zwingli directed the Reformation in Switzerland along civic lines, with a view to establishing a model Christian community. He persuaded the city council to legislate the various details of the Reformation and supervise the carrying out of its decisions. In other words, he aimed at political as well as spiritual regeneration. Zwingli’s theology put great emphasis on the sovereignty of God and His election unto salvation. He held that the Lord’s Supper contributed nothing to the elect; it was merely a symbol or remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ. He could not agree with Luther, who held that the body and blood of Christ were really present in the Communion.

METHODISM
The Moravians had a direct influence on the establishment of the Methodist movement, which was founded by John and Charles Wesley and George Whitefield. Moravian missionaries exposed the Wesleys to the gospel message while the latter were on a fruitless missionary journey to the New World and had not yet been converted. Later, another Moravian, Peter Boehler, brought the Wesleys to Christ. Shortly thereafter, John Wesley visited Zinzendorf in Germany and then embarked on his lifework. Methodist was the name applied to the “holy club” at Oxford to which the Wesleys and George Whitefield had belonged; they had founded the organization because of their concern over the spiritual condition among the students. Because of the strict rules and precise spiritual methods of the group, they were nicknamed “Methodists”; subsequently the name passed on to the movement begun by the three.
John Wesley (1703–1791) and George Whitefield (1714–1770) were the great preachers; Charles Wesley (1708–1788) though also a preacher, was the hymn writer. Having composed some 7,270 hymns, he is ranked by many as the greatest hymn writer of all ages.
As the Wesleys carried on their revival efforts, they received little encouragement from the Anglican church, of which they were members. Shut out of many Anglican churches, they took a cue from Whitefield, who had had great success in outdoor preaching in America. Tremendous crowds constantly gathered for their meetings.
Early Methodism was characterized by the preaching of present assurance of salvation, development of the inner spiritual life, belief in the attainability of Christian perfection in this life, and a dignified ritual. The Wesleys were Arminian in their theology, but Whitefield was Calvinistic. Originally, John Wesley did not wish to organize the Methodist church as a separate denomination; he set up societies within the Anglican church. But the success of the American Revolution demanded a separation there, and the Methodist Episcopal church was established in 1784. In England, Methodism separated from the Anglican church about the same time.
As well as having a wide spiritual impact, Methodism proved to be a very real answer to the social ills of the day. Spiritually, Methodism was the answer to deism in England, especially among the lower and middle classes. And it met the needs of the new laboring classes in the cities, for whom the Anglican church did not assume much responsibility. Socially, in large measure it retarded forces that in France led to revolution: it provided medical dispensaries, orphanages, and relief for the poor; it stood at the front of the movement for prison reform, the abolition of slavery, and the regulation of industry.

Re: Walking away from God

Wayne Flonders — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:39:34 -0000

Hi Vicky, you can read all of this, some of it, or none of it!

Nice to see you tackle this subject. I think you did a very good job. The only thing I want to do is caution you on your statement "I do not believe in predestination".

Predestination is a biblical fact:

Rom 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (NKJ)

Rom 8:30
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (NKJ)

Eph 1:5
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (NKJ)

Eph 1:11
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (NKJ)

To say you don't believe in predestination makes you a cousin of a person who doesn't believe Jesus is the only way to God or who doesn't believe Jesus performed miracles. If you truly believe the Bible you can't say those things. The Bible plainly teaches Jesus is the only way to God, that Jesus performed miracles, and that God predestines. When you say "I don't believe" in one of these things, you are putting your intellect and reasoning ahead of the Bible. That is very dangerous. In your case it is not a salvation issue, but you're treading on the same ground.

You may not like the doctrine of predestination, but it is solidly in the Bible. If you truly believe the Bible, you have to believe in it. Otherwise, I would have to question the depth of your belief in the Bible. I would also have to ask, what else in the Bible don't you believe?

Re: Walking away from God

Steve — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 04:12:19 -0000

I have read some of the debate and yes, even that great predestinarian teacher, Blessed Augustine of Hippo said that someone who has become a Christian can have his or her name blotted out of the Book of God (that is, the Book of Life).

I see some ground on which I may comfort not some few only, but the multitude of Christians: and I know that ye are longing to hear it. Christ hath said,” Forgive, that ye may be forgiven.” And what do ye say in the Prayer which we have now been discussing? “Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.” So, Lord, forgive, as we forgive. This thou sayest, “O Father, which art in heaven, so forgive our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.” For this ye ought to do, and if ye do it not, ye will perish. When your enemy asks pardon, at once forgive him. And is this much for you to do? Though it were much for thee to love thine enemy when violent against thee, is it much to love a man who is a supplicant before thee? What hast thou to say? He was before violent, and then thou hatedst him. I had rather thou hadst not hated him even then: I had rather then when thou weft suffering from his violence, thou hadst remembered the Lord, saying, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” I would have then much wished that even at that time when thine enemy was violent against thee, thou hadst had regard to the Lord thy God speaking thus. But perhaps you will say, He did it, but then He did it as being the Lord, as the Christ, as the Son of God, as the Only-Begotten, as the Word made flesh. But what can I, an infirm and sinful man, do? If thy Lord be too high an example for thee, turn thy thoughts upon thy fellow-servant. The holy Stephen was being stoned, and as they stoned him, on bended knees did he pray for his enemies, and say, “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.” They were casting stones, not asking pardon, yet did he pray for them. I would thou wert like him; reach forth. Why art thou for ever trailing thy heart along the earth? Hear, “Lift up thy heart,” reach forward, love thine enemies. If thou canst not love him in his violence, love him at least when he asks pardon. Love the man who saith to thee, “Brother, I have sinned, forgive me.” If thou then forgive him not, I say not merely, that thou dost blot this prayer out of thine heart, but thou shall be blotted thyself out of the book of God. (Sermons on Selected Sermons of the New Testament, Sermon VI, by Blessed Augustine of Hippo, 354-430 A.D., vol. 6, p. 279, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, edited by Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D., volumes 1-14, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., Peabody, Massachusetts)

As for the predestination controversy, Blessed Augustine is practically the only one of the Church Fathers I have read in a 38 volume set of them that I have that taught predestination. All of the others, even the earliest ones, like St. Justin and St. Irenaeus, taught free will. Blessed Augustine taught free will in his early writings and predestination later. Before he became a Christian, he was involved in the Manichaean heresy. The Manichaeans taught predestination. When he was refuting the false doctrines of Pelagius, he went back to his Manichaean background and argued against Pelagianism by saying that God predestines people to salvation. There were other Fathers who refuted Pelagianism, too, like St. Jerome, but they did not teach that we are predestined.
What has been always taught everywhere the apostles founded a church and by everyone who is a respected teacher of the Church (or at least most of the respected teachers of the Church) is the true doctrine. By respected teacher, I am referring to the Church Fathers. Universality, antiquity, and consent: that is the threefold test for Holy Tradition given by St. Vincent of Lerins. Sola Scriptura obviously does not work when it comes to determining what is the truth and what is not. Just look at all of those Sola Scriptura theologians on this blog who keep making conflicting comments as to what exactly the Bible means. There is a saying that one of our bishops said once in one of his books. Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are two different sides of the same coin. The Roman Catholics have a pope. For the Protestants, every man is his own pope. We Orthodox do not have a pope. (Although the Patriarch of Alexandria is called pope, that is just an honorary title.) The whole Church decides what is right and what is wrong. We believe that the Holy Spirit guides the whole Church into truth (St. John 16:13) and has always guided the Church since its beginning on that very first Pentecost. (Acts chapter 2) The Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth." (I Tim. 3:15)
The Orthodox Church has been in existence for nearly 2000 years and we have never taught any dogma of predestination or the "Once Saved, Always Saved" doctrine. There has never been a council of our Church that dogmatized these doctrines. We believe that both of these doctrines are heretical.

Steve

Re: Walking away from God

nathanmitchell — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:39:14 -0000

Vicky,

food for thought considering Galatians, 5:4 and 2 peter 2:22.

Galaians5:4

Wesley commentary

Therefore Christ is become of no effect to you - Who seek to be justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace - Ye renounce the new covenant. Ye disclaim the benefit of this gracious dispensation.

Calvin commentary

5:4 Christ is b become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are c justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(b) That is, as he himself expounds it afterward, "ye are fallen from grace."
(c) That is, seek to be justified by the Law, for indeed no man is justified by the Law.

John Macarthur

5:4 justified. See notes on 2:16; Rom. 3:24. estranged from Christ … fallen from grace. The Gr. word for “estranged” means “to be separated,” or “to be severed.” The word for “fallen” means “to lose one’s grasp on something.” Paul’s clear meaning is that any attempt to be justified by the law is to reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Those once exposed to the gracious truth of the gospel, who then turn their backs on Christ (Heb. 6:4–6) and seek to be justified by the law are separated from Christ and lose all prospects of God’s gracious salvation. Their desertion of Christ and the gospel only proves that their faith was never genuine (cf. Luke 8:13, 14; 1 John 2:19).

2 Peter 2:22 Amplified Bible Translation

There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.

John Macarthur has this to say about 2 Peter 2:22 2:22 dog … sow. Two graphic analogies of an apostate. The first from Proverbs 26:11; the second is Peter’s own.

In Christ,

Nathan

Re: Walking away from God

Rebecca — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:57:56 -0000

Hey Vicky,
I think God is a loving God that saves us forever.
Love,
Rebecca